Keeping up the pace
05 April 2023
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry from MFS Investment Management talks to Lucy Carter about the state of DEI in the industry, where firms need to keep pushing for change and how to avoid box ticking
Image: MFS Investment Management
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry is no stranger to the diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) space. During her career, she has served in a number of DEI roles at firms including American Express and J.P. Morgan Chase, leading diversity recruiting, multicultural marketing and campus talent pipeline initiatives, before joining MFS Investment Management as chief DEI officer in January 2022.
Reflecting on the evolution of DEI in financial services, Thompson-Dolberry affirms that “there’s a more deliberate way of thinking about DEI right now, because everyone is talking about it.” In the not-so-distant past, she suggests, companies may have been interested in starting DEI initiatives but held back for fear of making a big statement and standing out from the rest of the industry. However, now that DEI is front-of-mind for the industry, “no one has to feel like they’re sticking out. Organisations can lean into doing more in ways that are authentic to them.”
Box ticking?
Of course, there are always accusations of performativity around DEI. Just as environmental initiatives are scrutinised for greenwashing, DEI initiatives are judged by whether they are making steps towards actual change or are just box-ticking exercises for companies to pat themselves on the back before returning to their old ways.
“It’s hard to draw the line between checking off activities and ensuring that behavioural change happens,” Thompson-Dolberry says, “because we do want to move the needle.”
The process may have to start with box ticking, but it shouldn’t stay that way: “For a while, people don’t know what to do. You have to outline the process step by step. And you have to remind them, and then go back and check again.” Once people have been prompted a few times, and have integrated the processes into their daily operations, “you’re hoping they start to do it on their own.”
The process falls into the performativity if firms never reach that stage, and continue to just go through the motions. There are many ways to see if this is the case, Thompson-Dolberry notes. We can listen to our employees, we can ask the questions and we can look at the stats.”
At the moment, we’re seeing “the commercialisation of the workforce,” she says.
“Going to work is just like going to a hotel, going to a movie — someone’s going to be straight onto their social media, telling the whole world what they think. Everyone can have their opinion heard, and everyone is listening to what others say.”
While this may be a headache for companies, it provides valuable information for DEI professionals and others in the workforce.
“It gives us an opportunity to listen in a different way than we have previously,” Thompson-Dolberry explains, with employees sharing their thoughts on a firm’s operations in real-time, rather than only after they leave.
Community connections
Considering what companies’ responsibilities are to DEI outside of their organisation, Thompson-Dolberry believes that “in a perfect world, companies need a good balance’’ between internal and external DEI initiatives.
“Sometimes, working the outside can help to work the inside,” she elaborates.
“Getting our employees involved in the community helps them to understand current issues and allows them to be more open to alternative perspectives. That might not happen had they just come to work, put their head down, gone home, and seen the same group of friends they’ve always seen.”
On a panel at the ISITC Summit in Boston, speakers outlined the work that their companies are doing outside of their organisations. Community outreach, charitable partnerships and philanthropic efforts are becoming ubiquitous across the industry, with firms aligning themselves with a particular issue or initiative.
“We are in very rare air with the money that is made and the access that people have in this industry. When you can share this industry’s commitment to DEI with others and let them know what it could mean for them, it can be really powerful.”
Improving DEI begins through education: “For some folks, this industry is something that they’ve talked about at the dinner table. It’s the friends they have, the friends their parents have. But for those from underserved and marginalised communities — who’s going to tell them? If you can’t see it, you don’t even know that it’s really there, you miss that opportunity.”
This is where community outreach comes in, with firms attending student career days, offering interview advice and connecting to those who may not have considered the financial services industry as a viable career option. However, it’s important for firms to evolve their outreach strategies “in order to continue to be relevant.”
While student outreach programmes are often angled towards university students, companies should really be targeting high school students, Thompson-Dolberry reveals. “Kids are thinking about their careers between the ages of 13 and 18. If we just go to colleges, they’re already past thinking about us.”
Working with young people is beneficial in a number of ways, she goes on to say. Employees feel that they’re doing something positive by helping others, and in the longer term such initiatives will be beneficial to the industry as a whole. Getting a new generation interested in financial services will undoubtedly pay off down the road, no matter whether companies want to actively engage in social enterprises or not.
Getting people involved
At a FinovateEurope panel earlier this year, DEI was framed as an “opportunity” that firms should invest in, diversifying their staff alongside their portfolio. When asked whether this more economic-based approach should be taken towards DEI, Thompson-Dolberry remarks that “how we get people to do the thing that we want them to do” is a question she is asked regularly.
“If we can get people engaged in DEI, I almost don’t care about the reason why they do it,” she states. One single message or motivation is not going to resonate with everyone.
“Some people aren’t into the social side of things, they’re into making money and doing their jobs well. If I can help them understand how DEI helps them to do that, then I’m happy.”
There’s no one ‘right’ motivation to engage with DEI, Thompson-Dolberry says. “As long as everyone does the right thing, it doesn’t have to be for the same reason. You have to meet people where they are and get your message to resonate with them.”
Fear of failure
It’s inarguable that the DEI umbrella covers topics that can be difficult to talk about. This is where the concept of psychological safety comes in, something that Thompson-Dolberry says she has had a ‘Eureka’ moment about over the past year.
“I used to think that psychological safety meant someone from a marginalised or underrepresented background feeling safe to be themselves in a space. I was thinking about it from my own perspective.
“Now, I’ve realised that if someone doesn’t look like me, they need to feel psychologically safe in engaging with me” — or they may simply avoid interactions. This could be down to a fear of failure, something that is seen on an individual, organisational and cross-industry level, Thompson-Dolberry reports.
This fear often stems from the thought of saying or doing something wrong, and being reprimanded or even losing a career. However, “inaction is not the answer,” Thompson-Dolberry stresses.
“If the world moves forward and your inaction keeps you here, you’re now behind. That’s what’s happening with this part of the financial services industry. We fall behind others because we’re so afraid of not getting it right,” she argues. But in reality, “no one’s getting it totally right.”
In order for the industry to move forward, organisations need to come together “so that it doesn’t feel so scary,” she proposes. If companies work together to discuss what does and doesn’t work and figure out their next steps as a collective, then real change can happen.
The path to success
In order to improve DEI in the industry, those who are usually in the spotlight must “never miss an opportunity to leverage the platform they have to get a message out. Everyone has a place of influence, whether you’re a manager holding a team meeting, a CEO speaking at a town hall meeting or someone sitting on an industry panel.”
“DEI is not a spectator sport,” Thompson-Dolberry said during the aforementioned ISITC Summit panel. It requires a whole-company approach, or progress will stagnate. Too many people have been happy to be uncomfortable talking about certain topics, she asserts, but now “it’s time to choose courage over comfort.”
One way that Thompson-Dolberry and her team encourage managers to start conversations is by giving them talking points for meetings.
“They think it’s really weird, and they’re not sure what to say,” she affirms. But once a topic has been broached, it becomes easier for others to talk about it, discuss their experiences and learn from one another.
“If we can’t have an open dialogue we’re never going to be able to talk about these issues. Because it’s hard. It’s serious. It impacts people’s lives. It’s real life, but we have to laugh at real life too. The more we can do that with each other, the better off we are.”
Lighthearted conversations lead to more weighty discussions, “and the next thing you know you’re having a real talk with someone,” she explains.
“These casual conversations can make people feel more comfortable to ask questions without being self-conscious, or uncomfortable, or worried about saying the wrong thing.”
“Once we start looking at people as people,” she concludes, embracing natural curiosity and the desire to develop a better understanding of those around us, “a lot of things get easier.”
Reflecting on the evolution of DEI in financial services, Thompson-Dolberry affirms that “there’s a more deliberate way of thinking about DEI right now, because everyone is talking about it.” In the not-so-distant past, she suggests, companies may have been interested in starting DEI initiatives but held back for fear of making a big statement and standing out from the rest of the industry. However, now that DEI is front-of-mind for the industry, “no one has to feel like they’re sticking out. Organisations can lean into doing more in ways that are authentic to them.”
Box ticking?
Of course, there are always accusations of performativity around DEI. Just as environmental initiatives are scrutinised for greenwashing, DEI initiatives are judged by whether they are making steps towards actual change or are just box-ticking exercises for companies to pat themselves on the back before returning to their old ways.
“It’s hard to draw the line between checking off activities and ensuring that behavioural change happens,” Thompson-Dolberry says, “because we do want to move the needle.”
The process may have to start with box ticking, but it shouldn’t stay that way: “For a while, people don’t know what to do. You have to outline the process step by step. And you have to remind them, and then go back and check again.” Once people have been prompted a few times, and have integrated the processes into their daily operations, “you’re hoping they start to do it on their own.”
The process falls into the performativity if firms never reach that stage, and continue to just go through the motions. There are many ways to see if this is the case, Thompson-Dolberry notes. We can listen to our employees, we can ask the questions and we can look at the stats.”
At the moment, we’re seeing “the commercialisation of the workforce,” she says.
“Going to work is just like going to a hotel, going to a movie — someone’s going to be straight onto their social media, telling the whole world what they think. Everyone can have their opinion heard, and everyone is listening to what others say.”
While this may be a headache for companies, it provides valuable information for DEI professionals and others in the workforce.
“It gives us an opportunity to listen in a different way than we have previously,” Thompson-Dolberry explains, with employees sharing their thoughts on a firm’s operations in real-time, rather than only after they leave.
Community connections
Considering what companies’ responsibilities are to DEI outside of their organisation, Thompson-Dolberry believes that “in a perfect world, companies need a good balance’’ between internal and external DEI initiatives.
“Sometimes, working the outside can help to work the inside,” she elaborates.
“Getting our employees involved in the community helps them to understand current issues and allows them to be more open to alternative perspectives. That might not happen had they just come to work, put their head down, gone home, and seen the same group of friends they’ve always seen.”
On a panel at the ISITC Summit in Boston, speakers outlined the work that their companies are doing outside of their organisations. Community outreach, charitable partnerships and philanthropic efforts are becoming ubiquitous across the industry, with firms aligning themselves with a particular issue or initiative.
“We are in very rare air with the money that is made and the access that people have in this industry. When you can share this industry’s commitment to DEI with others and let them know what it could mean for them, it can be really powerful.”
Improving DEI begins through education: “For some folks, this industry is something that they’ve talked about at the dinner table. It’s the friends they have, the friends their parents have. But for those from underserved and marginalised communities — who’s going to tell them? If you can’t see it, you don’t even know that it’s really there, you miss that opportunity.”
This is where community outreach comes in, with firms attending student career days, offering interview advice and connecting to those who may not have considered the financial services industry as a viable career option. However, it’s important for firms to evolve their outreach strategies “in order to continue to be relevant.”
While student outreach programmes are often angled towards university students, companies should really be targeting high school students, Thompson-Dolberry reveals. “Kids are thinking about their careers between the ages of 13 and 18. If we just go to colleges, they’re already past thinking about us.”
Working with young people is beneficial in a number of ways, she goes on to say. Employees feel that they’re doing something positive by helping others, and in the longer term such initiatives will be beneficial to the industry as a whole. Getting a new generation interested in financial services will undoubtedly pay off down the road, no matter whether companies want to actively engage in social enterprises or not.
Getting people involved
At a FinovateEurope panel earlier this year, DEI was framed as an “opportunity” that firms should invest in, diversifying their staff alongside their portfolio. When asked whether this more economic-based approach should be taken towards DEI, Thompson-Dolberry remarks that “how we get people to do the thing that we want them to do” is a question she is asked regularly.
“If we can get people engaged in DEI, I almost don’t care about the reason why they do it,” she states. One single message or motivation is not going to resonate with everyone.
“Some people aren’t into the social side of things, they’re into making money and doing their jobs well. If I can help them understand how DEI helps them to do that, then I’m happy.”
There’s no one ‘right’ motivation to engage with DEI, Thompson-Dolberry says. “As long as everyone does the right thing, it doesn’t have to be for the same reason. You have to meet people where they are and get your message to resonate with them.”
Fear of failure
It’s inarguable that the DEI umbrella covers topics that can be difficult to talk about. This is where the concept of psychological safety comes in, something that Thompson-Dolberry says she has had a ‘Eureka’ moment about over the past year.
“I used to think that psychological safety meant someone from a marginalised or underrepresented background feeling safe to be themselves in a space. I was thinking about it from my own perspective.
“Now, I’ve realised that if someone doesn’t look like me, they need to feel psychologically safe in engaging with me” — or they may simply avoid interactions. This could be down to a fear of failure, something that is seen on an individual, organisational and cross-industry level, Thompson-Dolberry reports.
This fear often stems from the thought of saying or doing something wrong, and being reprimanded or even losing a career. However, “inaction is not the answer,” Thompson-Dolberry stresses.
“If the world moves forward and your inaction keeps you here, you’re now behind. That’s what’s happening with this part of the financial services industry. We fall behind others because we’re so afraid of not getting it right,” she argues. But in reality, “no one’s getting it totally right.”
In order for the industry to move forward, organisations need to come together “so that it doesn’t feel so scary,” she proposes. If companies work together to discuss what does and doesn’t work and figure out their next steps as a collective, then real change can happen.
The path to success
In order to improve DEI in the industry, those who are usually in the spotlight must “never miss an opportunity to leverage the platform they have to get a message out. Everyone has a place of influence, whether you’re a manager holding a team meeting, a CEO speaking at a town hall meeting or someone sitting on an industry panel.”
“DEI is not a spectator sport,” Thompson-Dolberry said during the aforementioned ISITC Summit panel. It requires a whole-company approach, or progress will stagnate. Too many people have been happy to be uncomfortable talking about certain topics, she asserts, but now “it’s time to choose courage over comfort.”
One way that Thompson-Dolberry and her team encourage managers to start conversations is by giving them talking points for meetings.
“They think it’s really weird, and they’re not sure what to say,” she affirms. But once a topic has been broached, it becomes easier for others to talk about it, discuss their experiences and learn from one another.
“If we can’t have an open dialogue we’re never going to be able to talk about these issues. Because it’s hard. It’s serious. It impacts people’s lives. It’s real life, but we have to laugh at real life too. The more we can do that with each other, the better off we are.”
Lighthearted conversations lead to more weighty discussions, “and the next thing you know you’re having a real talk with someone,” she explains.
“These casual conversations can make people feel more comfortable to ask questions without being self-conscious, or uncomfortable, or worried about saying the wrong thing.”
“Once we start looking at people as people,” she concludes, embracing natural curiosity and the desire to develop a better understanding of those around us, “a lot of things get easier.”
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